Is VTM still a priority?

General Discussion
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Just initially PF2E and VTM were the main priorities, with PF2E laying the groundwork so that VTM could move swiftly afterwards.

Then Avatar got announced and character tools launched before VTM.

Then Marvel got announced and looks like their character tools are going to launch before VTM.

It was early this year, then by July, now October looks to be the estimate.

I get that multiple teams are working on different systems, but Pathfinder is a much more complex system than VTM, and it hit target - I assume because sufficient resources were deployed in its direction, because it was important to lay the groundwork.

Given that VTM seems to be more complex to implement than initially thought, at any point is it ever going to get similar resources dedicated to it to get it over the line?

I get that other systems are simpler so faster to implement, but it’s hard to believe that it’s still a priority when other tools are being announced and launched when there’s been no evidence of any movement on VTM, it’s publicly facing pages aren’t being checked for errors (the wrong launch date was still quoted until someone pointed it out on the forum) and rulebooks are long delayed until after their physical print runs (the players guide)

Is it still a priority, and if so what is the current bottleneck preventing progress?

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What frustrates me is that when Demiplane first came to my notice, I dropped the money for the full VtM bundle (even though I already have all of the paper version) and I feel like I was ripped off - I’ve had nothing in return for my investment that I can realistically use without the character generator. If I want to play with friends I still use Roll20 as it supports, albeit it in a clunky fashion, dice rolling and character sheets.

It feels like it was a way of getting a nice boost of income to the platform to get the ball rolling in getting other games companies to sign up and now it’s the lowest of the low in terms of their priority. If I had a way of getting my money back I’d be chasing that like a fledgling in their first frenzy.

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Hello, and thanks for posting.

TL;DR - Vampire character tools are coming next, very soon, and we believe fans are going to love them.

I’ll reply to a few of the comments directly here:

This is still an accurate statement - us figuring out Pathfinder was a crucial step in the process of us having a platform that we could then use for all the other games we’ll support.

To clarify here and accentuate my first reply, no, Pathfinder did not at ALL hit our target for it. We originally wanted to have it completed 6-9 months earlier than it ended up happening. That is unfortunately how things go sometimes with software development, but Pathfinder taking as long as it did very much pushed Vampire (and all the other games) back quite a bit.

This is more about the timing of announcements and not the actual work involved in something - Avatar’s PBtA system is incredibly simple, and we do indeed have different teams working on different games, so it completed a month or two earlier than Vampire.

No, the Marvel tools will not release before Vampire - Vampire will be next.

This has already been happening, and that’s the reason that Vampire will release in October.

I’ve talked about Vampire character tools and where they are in status for the last few months in virtually every Dev Update stream. We haven’t shared internal release notes since they won’t make much sense, but it won’t be much longer now at all.

The bottleneck was - as we have said all along - Pathfinder getting out into beta giving us a completed platform onto which we could build the other games.

Pathfinder’s beta started at the end of May. We released Avatar in August, and we’ll have character tools for at least three more games before the end of the year. That’s four games in less than six months (and that’s throwing the holidays in there that kind of makes the last 3-4 weeks a wash).

That’s all to say that our strategy of building a flexible platform where we could then move quickly with other games is already proving to be the right call.

No, Vampire and Avatar have been our second highest priority since the start. Pathfinder was the top priority because we knew if we could make a game system that complex work, we could make anything work.

Now that Pathfinder is out, Avatar and Vampire have been worked on in parallel, and Avatar released earlier since it’s such a (relatively) simple system. Vampire will be our third game with full character tools support - so even the release order should indicate the priority as I stated.

It is certainly not our lowest priority, as we have already signed literally dozens of games - there are many that are far lower than Vampire on our list, and we can’t wait to get to those either.

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Thanks again, and as I said above, you won’t be waiting much longer at all for the Vampire character builder and digital character sheet. We are really excited to get them out into the night soon!

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I appreciate the response; I take it under advisement.

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Thank you for the update.
I would have to agree with having some frustration around the delays though I know and have seen the various updates around these and understand that this happens. From my perspective, when I dropped money on the ultimate bundle, at the time the quoted release date was “by the end of end of 2022” and I started a campaign with that date as the basis, with each delay meaning my players move further away from utilising the Demiplane tools.
At this stage given the campaign has now been running for 10 months it is rare that any of us use them because there are still known holes that need fixing (eg. separation of powers and rituals). Most of my players will still refer to the physical books instead, even though I only have the core set of 3.

I’m not asking for any changes to your process or anything, I am only expressing my personal frustration here.

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Thanks for the detailed response, and from a software developer I also extend my thanks for your effort and patience.

I realize it must be just as frustrating for you as it is for others to deal with these delays, it’s not like you or the developers wanted or appreciate the delays any more than the rest of us. Nobody wants or enjoys delays, and having to repeat the same messages again and again to frustrated users can get pretty tiring and frustrating. It can feel like talking to a wall at times.

So I just want you and the team to know that I see your efforts, understand that plans more often than not don’t pan out the way you hoped, and I appreciate y’all. Looking foward to using the character tools in October!

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Hi,

Thanks for the detailed reply, I’m also looking forward to the VtM (or WoD in general) character creation tools.

Wkr,
Kim

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This is a source of some frustration. Send an email update, a socials post, or create a page for updates. Asking us to sit through what feels like a conference call for a company we do not work for is awful. We are customers, not employees.

Further, digging through forum posts for information may be a native way to find information for software devs, but it is severely lacking as a means of customer facing communication.

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Thanks for sharing your preference - we have actually heard a good bit of the inverse of this feedback, that others don’t like to get smaller development updates through email or social media.

It’s always tough to find the proper communication thresholds for the various channels given the variety in preferences, particularly with a small community team where we have to choose a few places to spend our focus.

All that said, the Dev Update streams are summarized in short text form here on the forums each week (and you shouldn’t have to do too much digging, since they’re all collected), and it won’t be much longer at all that you will see a whole lot of emails, social posts, and more with the news of the Vampire character tools release.

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Like all things engineering. It helps to manage the sponsors expectations. Without the transparency of the different teams; rules complications, etc… stakeholders are only concerned about their investment.

I think using a roadmap system with progress indicators would help alleviate fog/miscommunication.

Modern gamers (the industry is aging btw) are very used to agile processes; roadmaps; kanban boards, etc. It wouldn’t/shouldnt be difficult to keep a high level board for each system.

I recognize allowing people under the hood can lead to accountability; but you do not have effective leadership in an organization without accountability, responsibility and authority. If you don’t have all 3; then you will not develop good followership who inherently seeks/needs it.

When I don’t see my investment progressing at a rate that may be justifiable or (heaven forbid) completely unjustifiable… then I may become antagonistic to the process.

Capture the major sprints; provide the targets; and have dialogue when things go well or bad… Not knowing… is maddening.

I am already struggling to keep my group interested in Demiplane, outside of maintaining a library for common access to source books. Even that is questioned compared to google docs sharing; or simply PDFs on a cost comparison basis. Many VTTs we have already bought books for; or they include them WITH rules handling.

The pace at which it is providing tools to a mature engineering based group of players is often debated since we tend to be early adopters and test a variety of systems supporting VTT (we are spread across the country and have been gaming together for about 30+ years)

I’ll continue to test and provide feedback… but adopting a roadmap system would only benefit your community managers.

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